Thursday, May 26, 2022

Re: Response to George B.

George Boyer

Bill – Since you addressed your response below to the list it is appropriate for

me to do the same. Ergo. GB.

PS – ‘discussing the salary issue’ with the lists, OANDP as well as amp-l (as was

pointed out by someone else also, was totally inappropriate to begin with, except

perhaps to invite confidential replies. As I said, consensus cannot construct

ethicalness of behavior. GB.

George Boyer wrote:

> No, Bill…..this is not the same. Mere consensus CANNOT construct ethical

> correctness. If there is indeed a question of *possible* ethical procedure

> there should be no hesitation in getting feedback from any and all. If it is a

> question of evaluating a matter ALREADY transacted then the matter IS CLEARLY

> inappropriate for consensus and should be addressed confidentially to, perhaps,

> a lawyer or an ethics committee of the professional organization. In which

> case the lists would not be involved until the outcome became known at which

> point open exchange could evaluate the decision reached. Look, the important

> thing to keep in mind is that we all, professionals and patient-clients, are

> involved in ONE communal interactive enterprise and that direct exchange is

> essential in serving the greatest good of BOTH groups.


> AND, Bill, I want to post this exchange to the lists so that we may progress

> toward unity and communication and mutual understanding. WE ARE NOT ENEMIES,

> dammit!! George Boyer.


> Bill Lifford wrote:


> > Hi George,

> >

> > In response to your response:

> >

> > > Bill Lifford, Paul and Wayne and list members of both lists: It has

> > > been my impression that OANDP-L is routinely posted to AMP-L thus I hadn’t

> > > the slightest

> > > hesitation in answering you, Bill, as I did….thinking further that this

> > > was an opportunity for

> > > greater exposure of what is certainly the greater good of amputees and of

> > > the practitioners.

> >

> > I can kind of understand your line of thinking… but I did ask for private

> > responses only! I think that just as AMP-L is a place to discuss amputee

> > issues and such, O&P-L is a place where practitioners should be able to

> > discuss some practitioner-specific matters that should not or need not go

> > beyond those borders. Example: If a practitioner is concerned that

> > something he did may or may not be one hundred percent ethical, and wants

> > feedback on the issue, it could be disastrous to his career if his/her post

> > were to be cross-posted without his/her consent…. possibly biasing some of

> > his/her patients/clients against the practitioner when in fact it may be

> > totally undeserved. No one can always know the right thing to do in every

> > situation, and I think that although the listservs are in the long run both

> > devoted to better serving our clients/patients, O&P-L and AMP-L have to be

> > areas where some degree of privacy is respected if you don’t have permission

> > to cross post an item. Consider it “practitioner confidentiality” just as

> > clients/patients wish their records confidential.

> >

> > > On these two lists, AMP-L and OANDP-L, there is precious little discussion

> > > of

> > > background philosophical issues affecting both practitioners and clients

> > > (patients) so, when I

> > > can, I try to bring these matters to the fore. This is what motivates me

> > > often and I DEFY

> > > ANY OF YOU todemonstrate that this is not appropriate. If you are

> > > professionals and we are

> > > patients (clients) then we have one hell of a lot to keep track of in

> > > those areas. Saying the matters have been put to bed is ridiculous

> > > because they change with the clock. In order for us to remain sanely in

> > > touch with each other we better make damn sure we do a lot of talking and

> > > posting back and forth or there is apt to be a revolution in the

> > > arrangement of things which will make the notion of a union of amputees

> > > seem like an ice cream social.

> >

> > Which background philosophical issues are you talking about? I’m not 100%

> > sure I follow you here. Do we want amputees and prosthetists to “be on the

> > same page”? Of course. I would like us to be allies and co-workers. I

> > don’t like that some people are constantly suspicious and/or resentful

> > towards prosthetists. A prosthetic fitting (I think) is a mutual

> > engagement, not a “top-down” caregiving model where everything is very

> > decisively laid out before the amputee and the amputee is not given an

> > active (or at least informed) role in the prosthetic decisions that lie

> > ahead. I don’t think that a practitioner’s salary is really one of those

> > issues, though. When I go to work each morning, my commitment to my

> > clients/patients is number one. Like many people, if it were truly about

> > money, I could make much more as a computer programmer. But I love this

> > field because it is all about helping people. When you are emotionally

> > connected to your work, your ethos and commitment are solid as rock.

> >

> > With regards to the union of amputees, I think you’re going to have to lay

> > out an outline of the union’s probable structure, mission statement, and

> > objectives, etc., for someone to take up the cause with the intent of

> > founding it rather than merely discussing the notion. Sketch out some of

> > these and I would certainly be interested in discussing the matter further.

> > I’ll even help you start it if you wish (though I am not an amputee). It’s

> > just that when it remains so abstract it becomes hard to really put stock in

> > it. I think it’s hard to start something like that from nothing… it’s

> > better to create something and then modify it to suit your needs. Why not

> > actually start your own amputee union, and modify it to accomodate the

> > growth of it and the directions it wants to take? Simply calling out for

> > someone else to start up a union doesn’t do much to actually get it started.

> >

> > In the beginning you made it sound threatening, like practitioners and O&P

> > companies should fear the power ofthis amputee union that was going to smite

> > the practitioners who were untalented in your opinion. I don’t think this

> > was your original intent, but somehow the notion got across and that’s why

> > the idea has met with such resistance and negativity on the practitioners’

> > side. What do you think of this?

> >

> > > There is some question of embarrassment about salary matters??? Hell

> > > man, I (we amputees) sincerely want you to make a hugely comfortable

> > > living, as comfortable

> > > as ANY of the professionals…..AND we want and demand of you that you

> > > perform at

> > > maximum professional level, that the ethos of the master craftsman perfuse

> > > your activity.

> >

> > For this very reason, the “ethos of a master craftsman” or of a medical

> > professional made me very uncomfortable with discussing my salary issues

> > with AMP-L. Also, as soon as an athlete’s or star’s salary is announced, it

> > becomes the first thing people think of : “That bum makes $3.2 million a

> > year and he still doesn’t hit .300″…. I don’t wish for this kind of

> > thinking to trickle down to the point where amputees are saying, “How could

> > he be worth $$$? I didn’t have a good fitting with him!”

> >

> > Certainly practitioners are glad that amputees in general don’t begrudge us

> > the right to earn a decent living (or better). Whether or not I make what

> > I consider to be an appropriate salary actually does not affect what I do

> > when I am in the room with a patient/client. They come first, and the

> > salary issue is a separate issue to be taken up with superiors, bosses,

> > etc. I still don’t see where the salary issue was all that appropriate to

> > discuss with AMP-L.

> >

> > > You think we amputees harass you, nipping at your heels and yapping???

> >

> > Not the case at all. You know, we have had extensive dialogues on various

> > amputee issues.

> >

> > > NO NO NO people, I am aiming at the HEART!!! Of both camps!! This is too

> > > important to us to just quibble. And any of you who have used an

> > > artificial limb for real know that it is a hell of a lot more important

> > > than just making money. This is not just a negativistic commando

> > > raid…..I want to get

> > > us all in the habit of real communication so the effort can assume its

> > > rightful position in the

> > > roster of medical arts.

> >

> > Well, I think you do genuinely mean well, even if you do drive me crazy at

> > times (meant in a friendly way). Just please ask me next time if you want

> > to use my posts? You asked me before and it was fine.

> >

> > Bill Lifford, CP


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